zeroaviation

I still see some posts every now and then on the forums regarding the #8 issue. Has it been fixed, what tuners are still at risk, etc.

Some of you may know my work from building the "Black Box" used in the 13/14 cluster conversion. My involvement in Ford vehicles goes a little deeper than just hacking stuff . One of the things I have had the privilege in the past of doing is looking at PCM's on cars that have/had the #8 issue, and I want to share what I have found. (If you havent seen the cluster conversion, check it Out!!)

First I want to cover what "Dealer" is, and how they do their tunes. Typically when a tuner starts on a fresh vehicle, the start by loading in the stock tune, then a "value file" from SCT. This value file is created by SCT's R&D department. Most tuners make very few changes to the base file, and push it out with most changes intact. This was the "custom" file most people were buying. (Not much of the case anymore with major dealers)

When SCT first built out version 1 of the value file it has some very aggressive changes (imo). Let me detail out a few of those that are not very wise. All of the changes I will talk about here are in regards to Spark.

1. Knock Sensor Retard Rate - This is how fast the Knock Sensor function can pull out timing when a event is triggered. In the SCT base file, this value was increased from .5 to 1 for 4k and up. What that means is that it now takes 1 crank cycle to remove timing, compared to the half crank cycle as before.

2. Knock Sensor Advance Rate - These values are lower than factory, however, the values are still higher than retard rate. In other words, the engine can put in timing via knock sensor functions faster than it can pull it out. (How could someone call this safe?)

3. Knock Sensor Advance Limit - Raised in high load areas. This scalar limits the amount of spark that the knock sensor can add if there is no events.

4. Base table for Piston Protection - Is raised from stock to all 63's. Which pretty much means, that there is no longer any piston protection. Your engine would not be limited by this function.

5. Max Spark Advance - Is raised to all 63's. Another form of protection bypassed. Ultimately, in the right conditions your engine could make 63 PTDC of timing. W T F

6. Global timing - This function is a VERY powerful scalar. It is set to 5*. After all the various timing functions have completed, this adds a number on top of that calculation. For instance, if the timing functions command 26* of timing, and this value is set to 5, thats 31* of timing delivered. Another sketchy change.

When you combine all of this with a hot cylinder, aggressive driving, hot day ...well you get a failure. With that said though, none of the tuners are to blame. When a new PCM is release from Ford, they rely on SCT's R&D team (dude) to write these changes.

Now, have these been resolved? Yes, most all major tuners (Bama, Steeda, etc) have adjusted the proper values. I have even caught wind of SCT revising their base value files this year.

Will it happen again on the 2015? Probably, just depends. The only real training you can get to fully understand how a PCM works with the engine, is by working for Ford Corp. So, it will be learning by mistake for the rest.

There is my spill for the day, I'm sure people are going to flame and tell me I'm wrong. But be sure to include the contributions you have made to the community when telling me I'm an idiot (Before any dealers flame, remember, I can see every change you guys make to your tunes. Once its loaded on the PCM its fair game )

Cheers
-Matt

stupidgenius36

Interesting...

I'm curious to know each of those values that you mentioned in a current tune file.

Also, what do you say to those that claim it happened on a completely stock engine?

zeroaviation

Ask and you shall receive. XLS attached to original post, each table is on a separate page.

I never talk directly to the End User. However, most cars I have touched still had a tune on them lol.

-Matt

lakeguy77

None of this comes as any surprise to me. Coming from the Import world, the tuners working with turbocharged Subaru's usually started by lifting protection thresholds to keep the timing advanced...which is NOT the place to start. They've smartened up over the years but there were a lot of blown engines and denied warranty claims before they finally figured it out. Even now, the "off the shelf", or one-size-fits-all tunes are often pretty aggressive, to the point where a weather change or a bad tank of gas can spell expensive problems.

roadrunner

Kinda makes me think with more reason that next time if i get a GT, im definitely going with steeda. As far as i can tell theyre the only ones that claim to have a special relationship with ford on these cars. Heck i might switch to their tunes even now.

Thanks for the info

Automatic 5.0

I am fine with the amount of power my car has but I wish the transmission shifted more firm. Someone needs to make a tuner that can affect just the transmission for a fraction of the cost to tune the whole car.

TheDivaDanielle

this is badass. Now teach us about ghost cam tunes. :-P

dmhines

Thanks Matt!

MustangDude

Matt, thanks for your information.

Steeda has a "technology transformation" arrangement with Ford which allows them a heads up on specs for models not even released which gives them a foot up. I installed their CAI and tune yesterday. Top quality and engineering for the CAI and what a difference in power & torque.

AMDanBailer

Great explanation and write up zeroaviation!


This is one of the best breakdowns of the issue I have seen to date. Luckily this is a thing of the past for most of us.


This was an issue for all of us at one point, but as mentioned most of the companies changed their programs to prevent this. It also prompted Bama to offer a warranty with their tunes to ensure customers that our tunes were and still are safe to run.


We are eager to get our hands on the 2015 and certainly will have a longer research and design process to weed out any possible issues like this one.


Thanks again for the great explanation and information you provide to all of us. Best of luck!


-Dan

dmhines

Has there been any word on how Ford plans to get more HP out of the 2015 5.0? Or is Ford basically going to just put the Boss 302 Coyote in the 2015.

gjcavana

This is a great thread, thanks for the information. I still worry about installing a custom tune and voiding the warranty. If it wasn't for that fact I would have purchased a Bama tune by now.

TheDivaDanielle

well it has like the majority of the Boss 302 components in it. They prolly will finally give us direct injection, since it's had the provisions for it for a while.

2014GHIGGT

The explanation makes perfect sense. I like your posts.

Rather B.Blown

I'm too old to understand everything hes talking about (I'm still stuck on points, vacuum advance and timing lights, lol), but it makes more sense than a lot of the bull **** that was spewed by people when #8s started grenading. So I approve of this thread. Good stuff zeroaviation.

88lx50

Matt - I am curious - in simple terms for guys like me who have not much tuning knowledge - where are the tuners finding power now? Are they still putting more aggressive timing into the engine, and wouldn't that still be unsafe?

Automatic 5.0

This one I don't see being a big deal:

1. Knock Sensor Retard Rate - This is how fast the Knock Sensor function can pull out timing when a event is triggered. In the SCT base file, this value was increased from .5 to 1 for 4k and up. What that means is that it now takes 1 crank cycle to remove timing, compared to the half crank cycle as before.

One crank cycle = 4 cylinders firing vice only 2. Why would this be so critical?

RC13GT

I doubt DI will happen until 2016-17

2014GHIGGT

agreed. kind of like the 2010 introduction. the real power train changes came a year later.

2014GHIGGT

I believe it is because it will pull timing out twice as quickly if an event is triggered.