saleen367

Since this thread was lost along with several others ... I'll take it upon myself to offer and update off another forum .. looks to me like this couple has a legitimate oil consumption problem.

It's been a while since I posted, and I didn't know that follow up posts were being made. I was getting email alerts but have not received any for a long time, so I just figured the subject was dead.

To recap, briefly, we bought a 2009 GT early in the year and at 800 miles I noticed it smoking. I checked the oil and it was 1/2 quart low. I took it back to the dealership and they told me it was normal and was related to my drive pattern of not letting the car warm up fully before shutting it off.

We are in a pretty remote location and there is nowhere that we can drive that the car does not fully warm up, and Ford specifically stated that the blue smoke was normal WITHOUT associated oil consumption. None of this mattered. They told me to come back at 3000 miles.

Our car now has about 11,000 miles and when we went in for the latest oil change it was a full quart low. Ford changed the oil and told me to come back every 1000 miles so they can check the oil level. I only have about 500 miles since that oil change, and I checked the oil myself and it is already 3/4 of a quart low.

The blue smoke continues, normally if the car has set for a day or two. It might be doing it every time but it is very prominent if it sits for a while.

I know certain people on here think that this is very normal and I shouldn't worry about it, and other have suggested making mechanical changes -- something I couldn't do even if I wanted to. As far as I know, these changes would also void the warranty, for what little good it has done me so far.

To comment on some posts about the dealership -- I am in a pretty remote part of Missouri, but only a few miles from a large military installation. The Ford dealership that we bought our car is not hurting for business or for warranty work. They stay very busy because of the military personnel.

The last time I went in (a few weeks ago) I asked to speak to the dealership owner, who was not in. I talked to the sales manager who "promised" me the situation would be resolved. They took the car in and changed the oil and want me to come back at 1000 miles. He said that he would work on scheduling a Ford factory technician training, apparently when factory technicians visit dealerships to help tackle their more complicated cases. So, once again, I am hoping this will be resolved but it will likely be a few weeks before I reach the 1000 mile mark.

I'll update you when I know more.

Again, this is not my car, but I doubt she will add an update her since her user name is gone along with the thread. Feel free to add your opinion.

mrkabc

Maybe it's a problem with valve guide seals? The symptom the poster is suggesting seems consistent with valve guide seal failure.

NewStangSmoking

Thank you for updating the thread for me, and for mentioning my username had been deleted, because I tried every password I have ever used and couldn't get in.

I ended up putting about 100 miles on the car today, and have to put about the same tomorrow, so I should reach that 1000 mile mark soon. I will update this thread when I know more.

NewStangSmoking

I took the Mustang in yesterday for the "oil check" that they promised would just take a few minutes to do. I waited about 45 minutes (they did wash it) and to my shock, they said that the oil wasn't low. Furthermore, I checked the oil this morning and it is now over-full!

I was prepared to take it to the next level after the first oil check, but this really threw me for a loop.

Am I saying they lied about the level...or that they added oil? Well, to be honest, I am beginning to question my own sanity in this whole thing. I checked the oil shortly after they changed it, and I know it was 3/4 of a quart low. It was almost, but not quite, to the bottom of the hashed area of the dipstick. Now it is way over the hash mark. I didn't check it before I took it in, I had really prepared to say HUMPH in their faces when they documented that it was low, and then demand that they do something NOW, not in 1000 more miles, or 2000 miles when the oil needs changed again. I just didn't expect this to happen and don't quite know where to go from here.

I have a mechanic that I used for many years before owning new/warrantied cars. I guess I will go to him to have him check/confirm the oil level right now. If it is over, I don't know what to do, as the 2000 and 3000 Ford oil checks are pretty pointless...even if it uses another 3/4 of a quart in the next 1000 miles, it will still show as full, as I estimate it to be about a quart over right now. There is a drilled hole in the dipstick above the hashed area, and the oil level is above that drilled hole right now.

I always check the oil after it has set overnight, and always on level ground. This morning I decided to set up the tripod on my camera and set it to continues shooting (10 shots, 3 seconds apart). The first shot was before I started the car, and the one in the pic I will attach was the 3rd in the series.

Now, before anyone says "that's nothing," I want to say that from the driver's seat, I didn't see any smoke at all, and I have long suspected that it smokes every time I start it, but I only notice on cold and/or foggy mornings when the air is denser, and the amount of smoke after the car has sat for a day or two is at least 50 times more than the series of 10 snapshots captured today. I wasn't going to even post the pics since it seems so insignificant, but in my mind, no amount of blue smoke is acceptable (this problem was first documented by the dealer when the car had 800 miles on it), however this is a drop in the bucket compared to when it really smokes.

These pics were at around noon and in the driveway, not the garage. I'm going to set up the tripod each day that I start it and do it when it is not so bright outside from within the garage. I know this doesn't capture it well. I have a very high quality camera but doubted the forums would accept 24MB photos, so I just cropped out one of the tailpipes. It's really only on the black back drop of the tire that you can see the difference. The "before" pic shows the tire as black, and the "after" pic, the tire has a blue haze/tint to it.

I want to add that I REALLY love everything about this car and since I can never find another one equipped the same, I would even prefer it was fixed and not just traded for something else. I'm not just trying to put one over on Ford or be a trouble maker. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why the dealership would do anything dishonest, but something is just not right here. Either I'm losing my sanity or there's something going on that I don't know about. I have the lemon law behind me, and a warranty behind me, so why they hell can't I get my car fixed?

NewStangSmoking

I took pictures again today and the smoking was pretty bad. No need to compare two images, but I did add two wide shot images to show how much smoke lingers in the air.

My brother is working on trying to find me a install disk for my video camera. I must have misplaced it, and I can't convert the files to a recognizable format that anyone can open. As soon as he finds it, I will post video.

Also, I checked the oil again after it sat all night. It was about 1/4 of a quart low. Not over full like yesterday, so I really have no idea what is going on with that. I know I checked it several times yesterday to be sure, and it was after the car had set all night and on level ground.

I know nothing about the mechanics of cars -- could this whole issue be something about how the oil drains (or doesn't drain) back into the oil pan? I know the first time I took it in, they acknowledged it was 1/2 a quart low but said it could have not been filled at the factory. They swear they didn't add oil, but it was full when I checked it the next day. Then I took it to another Ford dealer, and they actcually marked the dipstick and said it was 1/2 a quart low and they said they did not add oil, but the next time I checked it it was full, and above the mark that the 2nd dealership had made.

Since it smokes the worst on cool mornings and with dense air (high humidity), it does make me question whether this is an oil flow problem. In fact, I had the most problems in early spring when I bought it, and virtually no problems all summer, and now that Fall is here, it starts up all over again.

Does that even make sense? Since Ford itself acknowledges this as a known issue with my size engine, and caused by not letting the vehicle fully warm up before shutting it off, then wouldn't that again point to the same thing? If the oil isn't "hot," it can't properly drain back into the oil pan???

Oh, and while this is a pretty good amount of smoke, I have seen it much worse.

theedge67

Definitely not normal, there is something going on here. If your dealer is refusing to do anything about it, find another one. I know where you are there isn't much variety in Ford dealers, but maybe try one in Rolla. If it comes down to it, you could always take a day trip to St. Louis and have Sunset Ford take a look. They are the midwest's biggest Mustang dealer, and have a pretty top notch service dept. too.

NewStangSmoking

I did take it to Denny Ford in Rolla and although they were very understanding and more helpful than St. Robert, it wouldn't smoke for them so there wasn't much they could do other than note it was low on oil and to mark the stick. I was supposed to go back and have it checked every 1000 miles, but my current situation makes it impossible to really do that. Besides, I had continued to monitor the oil myself and it never dropped more than 1/2 quart low between oil changes.

I had posted this on another mustang forum, but I'm having problems with pages loading on that site so I'm sticking to this one. But what I didn't say on this forum is that this car was part of my husband's "bucket list." He was diagnosed with terminal cancer last year and I encouraged him to cash in the life insurance policy he had been paying on for 40 years so he could enjoy the money. The "new 'Stang" was at the top of the list, and although he is too sick to drive now, I still feel the need to "right this wrong."

But traveling to St. Louis to try to fix this problem is not an option. I was angry when it took 45 minutes at the dealership the other day because I don't like leaving him for more than an hour. This is also why I pretty much blew this off over the summer. Although I would see it smoke from time to time, it just wasn't my priority. It's still not my priority but I'm not going to let them get away with this.

69CaliStang

That is NOT good at all... I also have an 09 and while it is normal to burn through some oil during break in what I see coming out of your pipes is oil being burned up fast. I don't get anything like that out of my 2009... It needs to be brought in under warranty and they need to address this... Have they seen this exhaust coming out at the dealer? Anyone with two freaking eyes can see that this is bad news...

NewStangSmoking

Yes, they documented the blue smoke when I first took it in, with 800 miles on the odometer. I have 12,000 on it now. I think that was in March of this year, I know it was only a few weeks after we bought the car. They documented that it was smoking, and documented that it was 1/2 quart low, but they said that Ford says that is normal and caused by the driver shutting the vehicle off before allowing it to fully warm up. I tried to explain to them that this is not the case with our driving pattern, but said there was nothing they could do.

That's basically what I've been told...I have taken it to a second dealership, and I have called the Ford Customer Service, but still nothing has been done.

BTW, it does not do it every time and it does not do it while I'm driving...that I know of. It is just on start up.

PTRocks

Bring it to the dealer the day before and let it cold soak on their lot. Go in the next morning and start it for them then.

NewStangSmoking

That's a good idea. i will schedule an appt with the manager (who never seems to be there when I want to see him) and the service manager. The time they saw it smoke at 800 miles, they did have me leave it over night so they saw it the next morning when they started it up. But it is pointless for me to drive there and try to show them because it is about 20 miles from my house and it is already warmed up.

I think that is how I will proceed. I mean, I was pretty much screwed when they said the oil wasn't low, but if they could see what my camera is capturing, maybe they will do something.

I'll keep you posted. I have received several PMs and emails from people since I first started posting on both forums from people that also have new GTs that they saw smoking, so I hope this thread helps others that are told it is normal and just accept it.

NewStangSmoking

Today was a "good" day to take pics -- cool and raining.

eighty6gt

That looks like fuel/condensation to me. Keep checking the oil level. The dipstick on these cars is terrible, I check mine by just pulling the dipstick out and looking at it after the car has sat level overnight. As long as you do it the same way every time you'll get repeatable readings and can see if you're using any.

NewStangSmoking

Most certainly this is NOT fuel/condensation. The smoke is very blue, not white, and not gray. The photographs may not capture it well, but I assure you, it is not condensation.

As for the oil, I have stated before, I ALWAYS check the oil on level ground and after it has set overnight. Admittedly, the variances seen at the dealership(s) may vary because they do not let it set overnight, but I know, without a doubt, it varies quite a bit even when checked under the same circumstances. I think i will add that to my daily "to do list," to check the oil before starting it up in the morning.

Vermillion06

Smoke from an engine burning oil has a very distinct, strong odor to it, while condensation/steam does not. Do you notice a strong odor from the exhaust?

NewStangSmoking

Thanks for bringing that up. Yes, it is very distinctive and it is not condensation...it is oil. What got me on the path to pursuing this again was this --- I had driven the car down by the end of my driveway to listen to the wonderful Shaker 500 while I did some gardening. After about an hour I went to move the car back up to the house and had to do a sharp U-turn to get back into the driveway, and I found myself driving through a thick cloud of blue smoke. Since I had very little problems with the car all summer, I hadn't even thought about it smoking and honestly thought the people across the highway must have fired up their BBQ grill. But as I drove through the smoke, the smell was very distinct and I knew right away I was driving into my own smoke from the Mustang.

I went to Ford today to set up an appt. with the owner. Of course, he wasn't there. I had it out with the sales manager and told him about the service dept. saying it was full on oil when I knew it wasn't. He said "let's go out and check it now." So we did. The first time he checked it he said "It is over full" and actually asked if I added oil. I told him of course not, and that I was having the same problem getting an accurate reading. he checked it again and it was about 1/3 of the way down the hash marks. Then he told me that was NOT LOW and that if it was low, it wouldn't even be showing on the dipstick. He also told me that the best time to check it is when the oil is hot, because it is expanded and gives you the best reading. That pretty much ended any civil manner I had mustered to maintain to that point.

There was a guy standing with a clipboard behind us (we were outside in the parking lot) and I thought he was a sales type person waiting to talk to the sales manager, but turns out he was 2nd "in command" at the lot. When I told the sales manager that we had to agree to disagree and let the courts decide...and that I would hire an attorney to go after them for the lemon law, the guy with the clipboard stepped forward. The sales manager was obviously angry and walked away and after I calmed down a little I talked to the #2 guy.

He was helpful, but insisted that I didn't need to get an attorney and it could all be done through arbitration. Does anyone have any opinion on that? He said that is the purpose of the lemon law so that consumers have rights without hiring expensive attorneys. Of course, I'm sure they don't pull Joe Blow off the street to represent Ford in arbitration...they have attorneys present, and I'm also pretty sure that when you enter into arbitration, you forfeit your rights to any future lawsuits if you don't prevail in arbitration.

GottaHaveIt

Gee I'm very sorry to hear about your Husband maybe write Ford and not the dealer a letter kinda with what you had mentioned and that it would be nice if Hubby could see Ford do the right thing maybe before his time ! You think they'd do a compression test on each cyclinder as well ?

saleen367

Hey NewStang .. I see I've misses a few posts here.

I'll be the 1st to say that I've emailed the Ford dealer where the car was bought, addressed the service dept and told them to do the right thing .. not sure what I will hear back if anything, but a letter writing campaign to the selling dealer from all over the country would raise some eyebrows. I kept my letter professional, but let them know that what they are doing is giving their dealership a bad name throughout the country .. time will tell if they pony up and do the right thing.

http://www.kahnandassociates.com/mis...n_law_faqs.php

This was a link I found using google ... lots of info there .. and many more sites to search.

I think if at this point Sellers-Sexton Ford is talking arbitration, they are aware that this problem is going nowhere .. there only choice is to bail and take the least amount of loss they can. I'd at the very least consult with an attorney. Your mileage will determine how much of a refund you will receive. They will almost always try to put you into another vehicle to make you happy .. yet its always on your dime.

Keep this in mind .. you are not obligated to buy a new car .. if you want, you can take your refund and play the used market and get something very close to what you have. There are a lot of used GT's out there ... Mustangs are not selling well right now, hence the rebates on the 2010's.

Whatever you decide, don't give in .. if you need help, perhaps someone close by to you on this forum could give you a hand taking a video after the car sat for a few days ... I'm 600 miles or I would be happy to.

Keep us up to date .. keep your head up. We all know you have a lot on your plate right now.

NewStangSmoking

Thanks Saleen! I go back and forth on what I should do or what I want to do, but I do want the dealership owner, general manager and service manager to all get together with me so we can all watch first hand what I see. I will park the car overnight there and then we'll all go out in the morning. I'll continue my morning ritual of photographing so I can make sure I understand the pattern.

I do agree with them that it predominantly does it if I don't allow it to fully warm up before shutting it off - as when I do that it REALLY SMOKES, like this morning. I realized really early (like 4 a.m.) that I hadn't taken the trash to the end of the road so I threw the trash on the back of the car and drove down to the end of the road. If it smoked, I didn't even pay attention, but when I went out later to do the daily pictures, it smoked really bad. But it does smoke when I don't do that, and even if it only did it when I did this, it is not a "puff" of smoke and there is associated oil use, so the service bulletin doesn't apply to my situation. And if it was normal, ALL GTs would be doing it.

BTW, I do have a super nice video camera, but I'll be damned if I can find the software disc that goes with it. My brother wanted to borrow it for his deer blind, and said he would find a place to download the software. I'll really try to get a video by this weekend.

Oh, Saleen, are you having problems with that other forum? All the pages take forever to load. I think it is all the ads they run and some scripts are hanging up.

saleen367

NewStang ... the other forum is and has always been slow .. it is what it is.

Leave it overnight or as long as you can at the dealer. If you want to play their game, park it in the morning, go back when they are closed and let it run for a minute and shut it down. That way in the morning when you do start it as they are there watching, it will smoke like you are used to seeing it.

When I 1st bought my GT, I would move it out of the garage and onto the driveway to wash .. its a fairly steep angle on the driveway .. when I would restart it to move it back into the garage I would see a small puff of smoke, but certainly nothing like your pictures show. You, in my opinion have an exception .. it should not smoke that much. I also think the dealer messed with the oil level the last time you had them check it. No one will fess up even if they did it by accident .. its the way the world works now days.

The software you need might be available online from the manufacturer's website ... or at the very least rapidshare .. do you know the name of it? I would try a video with a dark backdrop(trees or a building) looking at the car from the side without revving the engine .. just start it and let the video state your case.